When building lats can you really determine whether you add thickness or width? The old school approach was always rows equate to thickness whilst pulldowns equate to width.

I disagree with this. Here's why:

Muscle stimulation plus a lot of other factors create muscle growth. Whether you stimulate the lats with a row or a pulldown you are not going to affect the shape of the its growth. In my eyes it just isn't possible. The shape of a muscle is genetically predetermined and therefore will grow how it is programmed.

What's everyones opinions on this?

My opinion is that usually you get a better stretch on the lats when doing pulldown movements, especially the neutral or the underhand pulldown. When for example bent-over rowing you are definitely hitting lats but not as much as the pulldowns. But that is not always the case. I feel like one arm dumbell rows target only the lats, especially if you row the dumbell close to your hip. On the other hand, I feel like cable rows hit mainly the rhomboids and traps. 

I agree about the genetic shape thing you are saying. It really doesnt matter how you hit the lats. You can only do row movements and you ll have an amazing thick and wide back. On the other hand, if you only do pulldown movements, i m not sure about the result. You will probably end up with a really wide but flat back. So, i guess what i m saying is that rowing is superior to pulldown :P


Also, if your hypothesis is correct, we should also consider it for chest training. People always say that flying movements are for width and pressing are for thickness. I personally do 95% pressing 5% flying and my chest is full and definitely wide because as you said its all one muscle.

I never really thought about it but i would say that genetics do play a role in how your muscle is shaped. I feel that as long as you're feeling the muscle pump during each exercise then that's what matters. Pulldowns don't really work for my lats and I've been having a problem with getting them to activate but when I do rows I feel the pump instantly. I've been changing it up and doing wide-grip pullups and have noticed my lats activate the way they should during the pulldowns.

For about the past 6 months I've done the exact opposite from you. I concentrated on mostly flys and just took a break from bench. What I've noticed isn's exactly a wider chest but my anterior deltoid head has grown a whole lot to the point where I can see and feel where my upper chest attatches to the deltoid head. This might be why people think there chest gets wider? 

That is a very interesting observation man. It is interesting because my anterior delts are seriously lagging! My posterior and side delts are so much more developed. Maybe I should start focusing on flys?! 

Since we are on the topic of Fly's check out my new post about my Tripple Cable Fly routine:

http://scotthermanfitness.com/forums.php?pageAction=POSTS&subForumID=32&threadID=415

Aslo for the Anterior Deltoid Head I suggest doing Cable Lateral Rasies. I personally call it "Starting the Lawn Mower" and it targets that head so well, you'll notices a huge gain in you deltoid develpoment.

I imagine you are having the cable in front of your body during those lateral raises? Because there is also the behind the body version, and that would be more of a side deltoid exercise.

Yeah you have the cable in front of you when you do it. When I first started training I was doing the behind the body lateral raises and noticed that my anterior head wasn't developing. So, to correct my form, I put the cable in front of me and noticed that the anterior head became the primary muscle, not the side. I also do Dumbbll Front raises on shoulder day, or you can do those on the cable as well if you prefer.

Yeah I dont think you can change the growth of your pecs either by doing flyes or presses! Kostas maybe when you are pressing you are recruting a lot more pec than ant delt to create the movement. By the looks of your picture this is maybe the case as your chest has excellent size and shape. With Joey however he may not activate his chest as much therefore use his ant delt to create the motions needed.

These are the types of discussions that this forum needs! Great job guys!

I noticed my lats were developing when I was doing a lot of indoor rowing using Concept2 indoor rower. I wasn't really trying to build muscle  during that time. My main goal was to loose weight and increase aerobic capacity. Along with the lats, my back muscles, thighs and forearms started to develop. This was 3 to 4 years ago. I haven't touched the rowing machine in months now. Just thinking maybe high rep low resistance can further stimulate muscle growth as opposed to just 6-8 or 8-12 reps range. Cycling between the two maybe beneficial to muscle growth.

You may be right about the chest activation during the first part of the movement. Here is a better example of what I'm trying to explain in this video:

Pause at 0:46, See how Scotts anterior delt is being stretched back? Then as he pulls the cables in its pumping the anterior head.

pause at 1:04 and this is where the pecs start to really come into play all the way to the final squeeze at 1:10.

I agree with you.  Genetics will determine the size and shape.  All you can do is EAT and LIFT to try your best to improve what you have.  You can always get bigger which might result in more width.. but the shape is predetermined.  That is why everyone is different!

I agree as usual Daniel but I have found hand placement and hand width hits different areas of the Lats.  Close grips work more towards the spine and wide grips more to the edges.  In this case, I refer to "thickness" as building up the Lats near the spine and "width" as building up the Lats towards the edges.

John

I have never thought of it like this John. I think a lot of people tend to stick with hand positioning where they can feel their lats working to create the motion. I used to be like this until I started using TUT and then I began to contract my lats with any pull motion and now my lats have grown a lot. Muscle stimulation is really the key with any exercise.