Hey,

for the last 1.5 year I'm training for bodybuilding purpose, the lowerest rep range I was doing was 6-8 for the big three.
Now I'm interesting in going heavier, my main purpose is still bodybuilding but I want more strength for my big three, so I began P.H.A.T style routine.

Just about to finish my first week, love it till now, but I'm wondering how does "powerlifter" train when he try to break PRs week to week.
The Bench for example I'm doing 5x5 once a week, do I need to go for all of the 5 sets for a weight that should be challenging and try to break my RM5 PR on the last set, or maybe try to go for PR on the first set after the warm up(as I'm stronger then?) and after that maybe lowering the weight a bit if I need to?

And how to I work on my RM1 on 5x5? do I try to go for 1 set 100% before I start to do 5x5 for about 80% of the RM1?

When I try to go for RM1, lets say something like in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wYaJVdhsX0 (5:30), does this work to RM1 replace my normal 5x5 that I usually do?

I would really appriciate some help here.

My lifts for now:
Squat 102.5kgx6x4
Deadlift 107.5x6x4(the fourth set was actually 110)
Bench 77.5x5x5(the last set was 80kg, the sporter helped on the last rep)

Do I train right about saving my heaviest weight for the last set?

Hey,

for the last 1.5 year I'm training for bodybuilding purpose, the lowerest rep range I was doing was 6-8 for the big three.
Now I'm interesting in going heavier, my main purpose is still bodybuilding but I want more strength for my big three, so I began P.H.A.T style routine.

Just about to finish my first week, love it till now, but I'm wondering how does "powerlifter" train when he try to break PRs week to week.
The Bench for example I'm doing 5x5 once a week, do I need to go for all of the 5 sets for a weight that should be challenging and try to break my RM5 PR on the last set, or maybe try to go for PR on the first set after the warm up(as I'm stronger then?) and after that maybe lowering the weight a bit if I need to?

And how to I work on my RM1 on 5x5? do I try to go for 1 set 100% before I start to do 5x5 for about 80% of the RM1?

When I try to go for RM1, lets say something like in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wYaJVdhsX0 (5:30), does this work to RM1 replace my normal 5x5 that I usually do?

I would really appriciate some help here.

My lifts for now:
Squat 102.5kgx6x4
Deadlift 107.5x6x4(the fourth set was actually 110)
Bench 77.5x5x5(the last set was 80kg, the sporter helped on the last rep)

Do I train right about saving my heaviest weight for the last set?

Hey there,

 

maybe you need to look a bit more into the whole matter to understand better what the typical 5x5's are and powerlifting / olympic lifting or strengthbased training is made of.

 

quote: " Just about to finish my first week, love it till now, but I'm wondering how does "powerlifter" train when he try to break PRs week to week?"

 

They don't break their 1RM or PRs every week.

There is a difference between warmup weights, working weight, and 1RM weight. Working weight just being about 70-80% (some do just 60% even) of your 1 RM

As well as in the amount of reps that are being utilized for the different steps.

And there are also different training shedules. Build-up phases, which lead to a peak phase in the end where you test your new 1RM.

 

You can not every week test your 1RM. A 1RM is basically really the "absolute maximum" your body can bear. And it often takes more than a week to even recover from that. (given you are not a juice-head which none of us would advise!)

quote: "And how to I work on my RM1 on 5x5? do I try to go for 1 set 100% before I start to do 5x5 for about 80% of the RM1?"

 

Let's take an example: Romano Rengel, Junior Worldmaster (2012) in benchpress /powerlifting / no-equipment class.

 

He trains normally in a 5x5 for a few weeks, trying to increase the "working weight" (not 1RM) continously in very small steps (1,25 kilo / 2,7 lbs added to each side of the bar) per exercise. For all 3 of the big lifts. (adding overheadpresses as a fourth lift)

But he does not increase anything if he fails to do the 5x5 reps with that particular weight in completely "perfect form" and "without failure". In that case he will go and use the exact same weight again on the next training, until it sits perfectly!

He will build up his strength like that over a few weeks, then going higher in the "working weight" as he decreases the rep-range: from 5x5 to 5x3, 3x3, and finally in the "peak" week of this training-episode to the doubles and 1x1s. (Mostly ending in some competition. Then a rest/Deload phase, and starting everything over again.)

 

Before even testing the 1 Rep max- there is normally a 'preparation week' in which you slow down, to have your full energy for the 1RM in the end, good article on that here: Click-Link

 

 

And those training cycle goe on and on.

 

Makes more sense now? Does it all come more together now? I hope so :)

 

Another tip i can give you from my own experiences with the 5x5's and with good tips from the masters:

 

Plan your warmup sets! As William also said, never waste energy.

 

Powerlifters also warm up a bit differently than a bodybuilder, based on the continously increasing weight, you don't wish to loose any needed energy. (Opposed to bodybuilding where you often grind in high rep amounts and due to that of course with less weight - completely different story :))

 

Rule of thumb i learned from M.Rippetoe is a maximum of 5 warmup sets.

And your reps can (should, even) decrease.

 

Let's say first warmup set : empty bar - 10 reps - fast. To warm/wakeup up everything.

next: 25 % of your working weight : 5 reps.

next: 50 % of your working weight : 3 reps

next: 75% of your working weight: 1 rep

next your working set: 5x5 with your working weight.

 

This is just one example, and you might need to adjust to how you feel best with it, and least deprived of energy for the working set. Because keep in mind, for the next few weeks you are trying to increase the weight on every working set! (if not failed to perform;)) You need to plan wisely how to spend your energy.

 

And i think the biggest difference to understand is that powerlifters are rather "training" and not exercising/working out. Meaning it's for a further goal / new set point. Opposed to most of bodybuilding being rather an exercise work out style towards goals that are directly visible or within a short time. And that shows in the whole way they are training and acting to get to reach those goals. Since you are doing the P.H.A.T style you are trying to achieve a mix, and will need to find a combination of both styles that works best for whatever goals you personally wish to achieve :)

 

And one really important note: i'd never try a 1RM on a bench without a spotter. Make sure you have a good one.Most really fatal / terrible accidents happen all right there.. on the bench. You are in a really compromised position right over your head / throat, handling heavy weight on 2 long shifting sticks - aka: your arms. Always keep that in mind :)

 

 

Best help I could ever ask, thanks!! :)

 

Does powerlifters usually check their RM1 on the three lifts same week or is it better to max every lift at other week?

 

And when I'm going for lets say 5x5 on the bench(or 3x5 for squat or deadlift), usually I would prefer using same working weight on all the sets and take really long rest periods to be able to lift the same weight, or is it normal to start with high weight and then decrese because of the fitigue(For example, I can barely do 5 reps with 80kg for the Bench, should I warm up and then lift 80 for 5 reps, and take even 4-5 min rest for lifting the same weight for 5 sets?). And next week, aiming to add 2.5kg(for example, for all the sets?)

 

Really appriciate the help, everything come together now.

you are welcome. =) and this is going to be a book again that i am going to type.. so sit down and get comfy haha

 

Okay let's get started:

quote: "Does powerlifters usually check their RM1 on the three lifts same week or is it better to max every lift at other week?"

 

No & No (aside from some crazy cases, and there they also just might choose to use only opposed bodyparts to test). And you'll see why in a moment:

 

To "taper"(prepraration time before peak) down before a "peak" (max test) you have to make sure you tune down on everything that is adding fatigue to your system. Because you wish to see what your maximum potential is - which you can't while being fatigued.

 

Unfortunately the exact same thing that makes us 'strong' also fatigues and inflames our system. And the culprit to fatigue is "volume"(reps) not intensity(amount of weight).

Unfortunately the one thing that will restore energy and heal fatigue = resting, is also an issue in terms of strength going down. Otherwise it would be easy and you could just lay back 1-4 weeks (depending on the max lift you approach - more about that later). But no especially with a restperiod of 4 weeks your body would be starting to build down muscles as it figures they might not be needed anymore. (the body never keeps anything that needs such high maintenance as muscles, when no need for it is set) Thus we drop down the volume range.

 

And now another component - which will answer your question - if you test each big lift in one week after another - each of the lifts needs a different 'taper' phase.

Smaller lifts that include less bodyparts (going from bech being the smallest then squat and then deadlift being the biggest) need longer taper phases than the other.

 

Squats may need about 2 weeks of tapering, whilst bench may be cut as late as only 1 week before the peak, and a deadlift even as much as 4 weeks.

 

As we said above you need to cut down volume but have to make sure that you also don't loose any of the precious strength you gained. So what you normally do is going down in sets but keeping intensity high in the taper phase. (Remember my answer from my last post- how R.Rengel also goes down in the reps before the peaking time)

 

To break it down in a single answer for now: you just started on this, and you are doing a mixture of trainings programm too, by doing the PHAT program.

Don't confuse yourself, don't overdo it.

Work your strength up for a good period of time (not just 3-4 weeks) and then think of the first max you want to test. (choose one of the big 3), bring down your whole training according to that (make also the hypertrophy days of phat suit your goal to test your 1rm at peak). You want all your power and you work for that one day when you are going to test it.

 

Be careful as much as you can, going for a max is taxing your whole system, and especially when you are new to it, this can be quite a shock on your body :)

And you'll feel yourself afterwards how long this often can take to recover from. (easily 1-2 weeks, where you are not at full potential)

 

We are talking here about your 'real max' . And not the pre-fatigued 1 RM some people in the gym are testing, without having prepared and worked on this, being fatigued from their daily high rep grind hehe

 

okay part 2:

 

quote:" ... or is it normal to start with high weight and then decrese because of the fitigue(For example, I can barely do 5 reps with 80kg for the Bench, should I warm up and then lift 80 for 5 reps, and take even 4-5 min rest for lifting the same weight for 5 sets?). And next week, aiming to add 2.5kg(for example, for all the sets?)..."

 

Downwards dropsets are basically not a thing in that kind of strength training. As this goes towards "volume" (hypertrophy) and not intensity (strength). As soon as you start adding tons of drop sets at the end, you add more volume to the exercise, after already having done high intensity (as here the all over amount starts to count as volume, no matter if every further set would also be just i.e 5 reps).

 

This will fatigue you more since you are trying to focus on intensity and might also compromise your ability to keep up with the intensity in your next training day that includes the same bodyparts.

 

If you can handle it physically without having fatigue issues on your next training days (which is often hard to determine for one self - trust me, you often think you are fine eventhough you are already suffering fatigue that already is holding your potential down)- you can add accessory exercises 2-3 complete exercises which the PHAT routine kind of does anyways by adding side exercises.

 

I think it's important to understand that with PHAT it's an attempt to combine the world of hypertrophy (volume) and intensity (strength), hence the different rep-ranges and set types on different work out days.

 

So of course with such a program you'll never be training 100% like a powerlifter (as he wouldn't waste all that energy on the hypertrophy parts and machines), and also not participate in the strict high rep grind of a plain bodybuilder. Doesn't make the program bad, you just have to keep this in mind. And everytime you'd like to test your limits on one side or the other of these 2 you'll have to drop the opposite part for that time being.

 

f.i. if you want to do a peak to test your max, you will need (as described above already) drop the hypertrophy.. the 'volume'. And concentrate your whole training around that goal to taper first and then reach your peak and test your 1RM / PR.

 

So answer to that question:

 

As the answer is not that simple i'll break it down into parts..

 

1) no, warmup (power days) orderly in a pattern (as described in my last reply post) that will not fatigue too much. And don't add further dropsets at the end, you are not trying to reach volume, you want to get intensity and you wish to increase this possibly on the next workout already again. So don't waste it.

 

2) also no, don't go higher in weight if you 'barely' can do the 80 kg. Let's clarify 'barely' in that case. Saying i could 'barely' do it includes mostly that you had a breakdown in 'form' on the last rep/s. Otherwise you wouldn't feel that way. And (also also written in my last post :)) you shouldn't increase if you can't do a certain weight with 'good form' and 'without failure'. So in that case you'll be doing the same weight on the next workout again, until you feel it "sits".

 

There is a reason to this. Since in powerlifting style you are adding continously weight, at some point if you'd go on adding everytime after you 'barely' could do the one before, you'll just run into bad form, sets that can't be finished orderly anymore, and possibly also injuries. And you want to get stronger and not ruin yourself :)

And "training" compared to "exercise" has a longterm goal in mind. (Also one of the big differences in training for strengh versus visual bodybuilding)

 

3) yes, please rest between 3- 6 minutes between the sets. (Power days of PHAT), you are trying to give all intensity and all energy you have into each of those 5 or 3 sets, that means (opposed to hypertrophy) that you need to restore the gylocse, oxygen etc stores of your muscles completely again before doing the next set.

PS: On the hypertrophy days of PHAT rest only max 90 seconds between sets.

 

ehm okay.. i think i am done.. haha, hope it helped :)

Im really thankful! You are a great help :)

 

When I was asking about decreasing the weight, I was asking about dropset, I was talking about the actual working sets.

On the bench for example, as I know myself I can complete all the 5 sets with 77.5kg, so I did the first set with 80kg. But I knew I wouldnt complete another set with 80kg so I decreased to77.5kg on the other sets.

Does that the way I should do it or I should do all the sets with the weight I can(77.5kg), and when I will be able I would go for 80kg for 5 sets?

 

About maxing out, lets say I want to max the bench, the week before I lift 5x3(higher weight), and on hypertrophy day I decrease the volume(lets say only cable fly on skipping chest day?), then max the bench press, and later I need to wait few weeks before prepering to max another lift right?

I am glad you find it helpfull :)

 

I see ! yeah that is a bit of a tricky question.

and yes. In that particular case i'd finish the rest of the 5 working sets with the lower weight.

If you can't increase fully within one workout, that is the way to go.

 

And then you try to build up slowly. Let's say one week you can do 5x the 80 kg. then another 3 x80kg and 2x 77,5kg (in the second set), and then the last 3 sets only with the 77,5 kg. Then try next week to get set one and two completely with the 80 kg. Or try 4x 80 in set 2. and so on. Until the 80 kg really sit without struggle. And don't even think about increasing further before that appears to be true. I can't stress that often enough hehe.

 

I don't know how your rest periods are. But i kind of think if you can do 77,5 you should be able to do all 5 working sets with 80. Maybe take the full 6 minutes between the sets, and really concentrate, breathe right, calm down between them, don't roam around or wiggle around with your body. And sometimes it's more of a headthing too. But yeah try how it would work with full rest periods. It mostly makes a hell of a difference.

 

And make sure you ate right!!! that is like 80% of the deal here. With some junkfood in the belly or too little food or many many hours ago.. you won't be able to pull up enough energy to do anything of value !

 

If it still feels impossible, then go back to the tactic right above, and try to increase per rep / per set until you can do all 5 with 80. I know sometimes it's hard to get over a certain step. So at times this is still the best method :)

 

 

About the bench press max. I'd say best method for you at the moment would be to stick to gaining some strength for a while. So that there actually is some 'difference' to test for :) unless you are really ..really..really..impatient and have never been testing any max and really just want to know where you are right now.

 

In that case yes, decrease all the chest and shoulder stuff down to sets of 5x3, 3x3, and further down to doubles and even singles. Of course the weight has to be a higher in the singles, doubles and tripples. (we spoke about that before: intensity must stay - volume must go !) And get rid of the unnesseary accesory moves for the time! (maybe 1 in addition per training day but those in the same low reps high intensity pattern as the main lift, you wish to test for, and probably best just don't do them at all- because .. see here*)

 

The majority of your training during the taper should be composed of the lift you wish to test. All setups need to be based on this for the final week.

To be the best on testing or a comeptition day, you need to practice with super heavy weights for the very lowest reps.

 

Meaning, that during your overreach and during your volume taper, the weights on the bar must be heavy enough to be a stimulus in the 1-3 rep range. This is - as said above - the time to for triples, doubles, and singles. Volume gets cut incrementally through the taper and intensity is conserved as highly as possible (sets with 1-3 reps are the norm through most of the taper itself. The only things that change are the number of sets and the weight on the bar.

 

*To get to the point: cut out all the crap around it - you are training for a bench lift max - leg days, chest accessory moves and everything else can be done when this is over. Makes sense , no? ^^

 

And once again on top: don#t even think about testing any max if the technique /form for that particular lift isn't on top! you need to be really confident and technically perfect at it, because a true max will break form always a bit, and you don't want to get injured!

 

(One of our younger members has made an article about propper form on max lifts, might be an interesting wtach for you too : LINK)

Really make everything clear right now! Thanks!

 

Guess I would wait until I will increase my bench a bit more and then test it, as I never did it before and I wonder how does it feel... with the other lifts I would wait till I get stronger.

 

Again, really appriciate your help, thanks!