So, as the title says I have just started squatting (first time was at a Smith machine to make sure my form is correct), and although I am not using much weight and generally feel fine the next day (minor DOMS in quads, glutes, and hamstrings--as expected), I did notice that even DURING the workout the rear vertebra in the back of my neck was getting "tender"...I did use a rolled-up towel as a "pad" while the bar was resting on the back of my neck, but I still had some pain.

Now (one day later), it's not any worse than yesterday-the day of the workout-and there is no true pain unless I actually TOUCH that bone and press a bit....does that mean that the bar was NOT in the correct position during my squats (4 sets X 12 reps, progressive loading), or is it simply a matter of my body developing some "toughening" of the tissue around the bone back there?

I am rather ectomorphic and therefore some bones do seem to "stick out" more than other people.

Advice? Suggestions? Although I'm not a total "newbie" to weight training, I AM NEW to squatting so I don't know if this is considered "normal"?

Thanks!

hey man

First of all, you technically havent done squats yet. Smith machine squats are not really squats and they can be dangerous. Start squatting with free weights and thats the only way to make sure your form is correct. Even if you get the "form" down with the smith machine, you will mess it up as soon as you try the free squats, as they are a different exercise alltogether.

About the pain. If you place the bar correctly on your back you wont even need a towel or a pad. Pads are for people that squat x2 x3 their bodyweight, which I imagine you dont. So, the reason you get the pain is because the bar is sitting on your spine. It should be sitting across your spine, and it should be on the traps, if you are doing high bar squats. It is possible that you have very small traps and they are not able to hold the bar, so the bar touches the spine. Its not a real problem. Just make sure, your shoulder blades are tight before you unrack the bar, similarly to the bench press. In the meantime, your traps should get bigger, if you are also doing deadlifts, shrugs and stuff like that.

As for now, you just bruised your spine a little bit. No problem. Ice it, and it will be fine. Just make sure you dont squat the same way again next time. Do some free squats, pull your shoulders back and make them tight, put the bar on your traps/across your spine and start squatting.

Kostas

Kostas is right on! I had this same problem when I first started squatting a few months ago. I only used the smith machine because I was afraid of holding the bar on my shoulders and potentially damaging my spine and like u had the bar resting on one of my vertebrae which caused bruising especially when I started adding heavy weight. I got over my fear and started using free weights starting with the bar only just to get my form down and felt how it was supposed to set of my traps and went thru the motion. Now I'm a pro!!! LOL just kidding but after I learned how to hold the bar it all was good.

You have misplaced the bar. C7 is the vertebral 'bump' you're describing and if you're resting the bar anywhere near there then you're holding it too high.

Two bar positions (high or low bar) are placed either directly on the traps just below C7 or across the rear deltoids respectively.

As Kostas said, the smith machine is an abomination in the weight room. Don't use it for pretty much any reason. Start with body weight and learn the correct form and structural balances to squatting, then progress to the bar only. The placement of the bar on your back will cause you to rebalance your form since you will be holding a new position - and work from there.

Don't use a pad. We do not speak of the pad in the weight room.

OK. I will add my opinions which are both supportive and controversial. First off, I totally agree with Kostas and Eric. ALL newcomers to lifting should squat with a barbell, free-weight style. They should NEVER use any other device or technique for squatting. It is important to develop proper form, balance, and build the corresponding stabilizing muscles involved when doing squats. One should not consider other mechanisms for squatting until they have at least 3 years of solid consistent lifting under their belt. This is the supportive statement :-)

Now for the controversial statement :-) The Smith Machine is not the Devil's child nor an abomination. This machine has caused more controversy pro and con than anything else outside of anabolic steroids. I agree that a Smith Machine should not be used by novice or beginner trainers. I view it as a device for more advanced lifters. It is also not a good device for powerlifting and those whose sole goal is power and strength. For those interested in bodybuilding and/or physique development, the Smith Machine is a useful piece of equipment when used PROPERLY. The issue is most people don't know how to use it correctly.

I have been using the Smith Machine to do squats and shoulder presses for about 20 years now. The first 10 years of lifting, I didn't use it at all. Since I train alone, these 2 exercises I feel more comfortable doing in the Smith Machine. I have no shoulder, back, knee, or hip problems (knock on wood) from using it. When I do squats, I go ATG and my foot placement is exactly as it would be doing free bar squats. Many people place their feet too far out or too far in thus causing the joint issues most people hear about. I can transition to free bar squats I just need to adjust my balance as the bar is no longer stationary but it is not impossible to do. The bottom line is my leg workouts are intense. My quads are always sore and my leg development and strength are above average for my size and age - I am no Arnold nor a IFBB pro but I feel my leg routine some would find quite challenging.

The bottom line is I am not writing this to debate physics, kinesiology, or biology. I just want people to understand that the Smith Machine has a purpose and when used correctly and with the right level of lifting experience is a very useful and productive piece of equipment.

John

Wow! It appears that I've stirred up a lot of "gut reactions" by bringing up this subject!

For the record, it was my trainer that decided to put me on the Smith machine to start my squatting experience. So, while I have NO problem questioning him directly about WHY he thought this would be best for me (I am never afraid of asking somebody that I am paying!), I have not seen ANY "peer reviewed" evidence quoted by either of the two gentlemen-scientists above (one in Kinesology, and the other Biology / Chemistry)--I only read that using the Smith machine is "dangerous" and it's an "abomination"--and should rarely be used. Like the two gentlemen who replied above, I also have a science / data gathering background and (with all due respect) those types of generalized comments are useless to me, while the anecdotal data presented by Mr. ABrowning about his experiencing the same soreness in the same area when using the Smith machine for squatting was far more useful in terms of addressing my question. (since he also confirmed that his problem was solved by simply switching to free weights for squatting)

While I DO appreciate all the feedback given, unless it is actually backed-up by "hard, peer-reviewed" evidence I shall take it with a BIG "grain of salt". I have seen many solid lifters using the Smith machine for a wide variety of exercises (including my own trainer, who deadlifts over 600 lbs. / 280 KG with ease, and looks at least as defined as Scott, and perhaps more "ripped" overall--all natural, of course), and based on the above, I will switch to using free weights for squatting, obviously being more careful about placement of the bar in the future.

Well the smith machine is great if you are a bodybuilder and you are not concerned about strength and structural integrity at all. Some people can use the smith machine for ever and dont get injured, probably because they add in different free weighted exercises as well or because they are lucky. Its great, because it will help isolate a muscle without using any stabilizers, it will allow you to use more weight and maybe get more growth out of it. But we have to warn beginners that the smith machine will definitely contribute to postural issues and injuries they might have/might get. Its just not natural for the human body to move in thoses ranges of motion. And yes a lot of pro bodybuilders use it, but dont forget the joint-repair/recovery supplements they take. As John said, if you get really advanced and you understand your body perfectly AND you are aware of basic Kinesiology, you could start using a smith machine for some exercises, especially when you dont feel like pushing yourself too much with free weighted movements.

So, anecdotal evidence that supports your current plan / routine is sufficient but anecdotal evidence that doesn't isn't?

Nothing of my response was a gut reaction. It's based upon basic biomechanical and experiential principles. A proper squat involves deviations in the sagittal plane as you move through the full, proper range of motion. A bar placed in stationary runners will not allow that and very rapidly cause you to develop muscular imbalances as muscles that are restricted or continuously placed at a mechanical disadvantage are utilized less, and improper muscles are forced to be used disproportionately to compensate.

Citing that your personal trainer deadlifts 600 pounds 'with ease' does not make him a good trainer. It means he lifts 600 lbs off the floor - additionally, he does not do that 'with ease' as no one does that with ease. I'm not saying he doesn't perform that lift, but 600 lbs doesn't move easily for anyone.

While Kostas is willing to say that there is some potential situations where the smith-machine may be used, as a professional I refuse to state the same. There are other methods to arrange your lifts if you are using the machine because you have no spotters, there are numerous benefits both to physique and strength development through using free weights.

I m not really that willing to say that! haha But I guess, it can work too in some occasions without causing problems if you include moblity work and proper stretching afterwards. Too much trouble though, that can be avoided by using free weights as you mentioned. And I imagine he deadlifts 600lbs using the smith machine :D

Mr. Eric, I will certainly defend your right to express an opinion, but the FACTS are that you are in the minority in that you state categorically that the Smith machine has NO use whatsoever in weight training....

I am not defending my trainer's compentency (or lack thereof) by mentioning his abilities in the deadlift, but I do see his physique and his training methods with others of all fitness levels, and (thus far) he seems to have gotten very positive results with them as well. As an aside, my leg routine did happen to include various weighted-movement and stretching exercises which complemented the squats.

While I understand and appreciate your point of view, I would only suggest that as a person of some education (and professionalism) you may consider keeping a more open mind before issuing condemnations of others' routines. (or equipment)

And just to be clear : the anecdotal evidence I quoted is specifically related to the soreness I experienced, and it's demise after changing over to squats using "traditional" barbells / free weights....as a previous poster had written. This has provided a certain degree of reassurance and understanding of the cause / effect relationship of doing squats in a Smith machine. That there may be (negative) long-term effects in doing Smith machine squats has yet to be positively established, but as with most things, a certain amount of variation and supplementation in the routine can help to compensate for imbalances that may occur. I attach here a link to another case which does support your theory, yet still falls short of saying the Smith machine is without any benefit whatsoever......he also has several YouTube videos on related subjects :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g34I5M35jbI

Right on john I couldnt agree with you more

Here are three different articles from three credible internet websites that offer sound general advice and knowledge from different training perspectives, be it powerlifting, general physical activity or otherwise.

http://www.liftbigeatbig.com/2012/09/squats-barbell-vs-smith-machine.html

http://www.poliquingroup.com/Tips/tabid/130/entryid/1383/Tip-389-Increase-Squat-Strength-and-Power-With-Free-Weights-Don-t-Rely-on-The-Smith-Machine.aspx

http://muscleandbrawn.com/stop-using-the-smith-machine/

From the above you can also see their cited sources if that concerns you as well.

And here are two direct PubMed research results on the efficacy of the smith machine on both upper and lower body lifts. They explore the differences in muscle activation and potential benefits / lackthereof of reducing the stabilizer effects in each lift.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20093960 (Upper Body)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19855308 (Lower Body)

All articles and studies were published within the last five years.

These articles do not even explore the other physiological benefits a smith machine robs you of, and / or, what it actually may take from you. Joint and muscular mobility, balance, fascial tightness and flexibility issues - things that the general public do not even know are wrong with their body. Training for a physique or general health is a great thing, do not get me wrong. I know and fully admit that my personal opinions on training and exercise are about enhancing everyday wellbeing and physical capability while maximizing performance and that may be overkill for the average person's goals. That said, I will always crusade on the part of public safety and try to purge my industry of ineffectual methods that are essentially sapping money from you.

Hope that helps.

Eric,

I respect and understand your position on this. I have read all the articles you reference above before and I don't think there is any issue with what is stated which is why I agree that the SM is never good for power and strength. I also agree that it takes away the development of the important stabilizer muscles which is why I would never have novice lifters or those with under 3 years of training use the SM for anything. Given your background, there is nothing wrong with crusading for things you believe in.

That being said, I can only share my personal experiences. My results may be different due to how I use the SM, my own biophysics and kinesiology, or just years of practice using it for squats. I do not experience any of the issues detailed in the articles linked above - I have no sheering on my knees, I never put my feet 12-18 inches out in front of me (I place them exactly as I would a free bar squat), I consistently am able to locate the bar on the "shelf" of the rear delts and traps (low bar style), and I go all the way down ATG in a controlled fashion. I know it is working for me at least because my quad soreness is always the same when compared to free-bar squats - mostly leg soreness not glutes. Again, I think it is more due to me having 10 years of free bar squat experience and "knowing" how to properly squat with a SM - as much of an abomination as that may sound. I don't deny the kinesiology facts behind why free bar is better than SM. I rely more on the results and how the targeted muscle feels during and after training it. The SM, at least for me, is providing the desired results :-)

John

Thanks to BOTH Eric & John for supplying published data as well as their personal experiences related to SM usage.

This is EXACTLY the type of information that I was looking for, and have already passed it on to my trainer.

In my specific case, I used the SM only ONCE and based on above data provided (plus ABrowning's confirmation that his neck pain was resolved simply by switching to barbell free-weight squatting), I will definitely try squats "from scratch" on my next leg day (using body weight / naked barbell and then adding plates if possible)

I am the first to admit that I do not have ANY "profound answers" to these questions, and now thanks to this Forum I see all the advantages to squatting with free weights vs. SM. I suppose I should be thankful that I used the SM only once (4 sets x 10-12 reps) and now I can look forward to doing them using ALL the necessary stabilizers and posterior chain musculature that the exercise was intended for!

The next "first" for me will be deadlifts! I found an interesting video showing how a "1st timer" is taught on this exercise....love the philosophy of using a supine grip for the initial experience!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFnwEsqJABU

You will go pretty far, friend. And that is for 2 reasons.

You question what you read and hear which most people do not.

You have found Elliott's video which is damn perfect in my book.

Thanks Kostas, I appreciate the positive words.

I've always been a "research" type of guy, so when doing something new which involves any type of transformation I always READ up on the subject, ASK questions of people that are more experienced than myself, and finally, TRY different things to determine what works best for me.

I am sure that I will make more mistakes in my training over the coming months / years (like doing my 1st squats on the SM!), but hopefully I can avoid injury and maximize results for the amount of work / effort given. At my age (51), this has to be a primary focus!

Yeah--I really enjoy Elliott's videos, and his "straight-shooter" attitude. Have you seen his video "Training for Older Guys"? When a guy built like Elliott talks about making "lifestyle changes" at his age (35), then I know that I'm heading in the right direction.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGujDMhOGwQ

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